diff --git a/dependencies.xml b/dependencies.xml
index e78ecacfa8..1f217e7303 100644
--- a/dependencies.xml
+++ b/dependencies.xml
@@ -84,9 +84,9 @@ Note all install methods after "main" take
     <pyomo-extensions source="pyomo" skip_check='True' optional='True'/>
     <setuptools/>
     <!-- This is because liblapack 3.9.0 build 21 is broken (and can probably be removed if there ever is a build 22).  This can also be removed when scipy is updated to version 1.12 -->
-    <liblapack skip_check='True' os='linux'>3.9.0=20_linux64_openblas</liblapack>
-    <liblapack skip_check='True' os='windows'>3.9.0=20_win64_mkl</liblapack>
-    <liblapack skip_check='True' os='mac'>3.9.0=20_osx64_openblas</liblapack>
+    <liblapack skip_check='True' os='linux' machine='x86_64'>3.9.0=20_linux64_openblas</liblapack>
+    <liblapack skip_check='True' os='windows' machine='x86_64'>3.9.0=20_win64_mkl</liblapack>
+    <liblapack skip_check='True' os='mac' machine='x86_64'>3.9.0=20_osx64_openblas</liblapack>
     <!-- source="mamba" are the ones installed when mamba is installed -->
     <mamba source="mamba" skip_check='True'/>
   </main>
diff --git a/developer_tools/alt_make_pip_packages.sh b/developer_tools/alt_make_pip_packages.sh
new file mode 100755
index 0000000000..ba48404353
--- /dev/null
+++ b/developer_tools/alt_make_pip_packages.sh
@@ -0,0 +1,39 @@
+#!/bin/bash
+
+# This script builds 3.9 and 3.10 wheels and puts them in the dist directory
+# It will create pip39_venv and pip310_venv conda environments
+# and use them for building pip packages.
+# It requires that there are working swig, python3.9 and python3.10 commands.
+# if brew is installed, on mac this can be done by:
+# brew install swig python@3.9 python-tk@3.9 python@3.10 python-tk@3.10
+# To run from the raven directory:
+# ./developer_tools/alt_make_pip_packages.sh
+# this has been tested on mac and also probably works on linux
+# The main pip build instructions are in the setup.py file.
+
+
+SCRIPT_DIR="$( cd "$( dirname "${BASH_SOURCE[0]}" )" && pwd )"
+RAVEN_DIR=`dirname $SCRIPT_DIR`
+
+cd $RAVEN_DIR
+
+rm -f setup.cfg
+python3.9 ./scripts/library_handler.py pip --action=setup.cfg > setup.cfg
+
+rm -Rf pip39_venv/
+python3.9 -m venv pip39_venv
+source pip39_venv/bin/activate
+command -v python
+python -m ensurepip
+python -m pip install --upgrade build
+python -m build
+deactivate
+
+rm -Rf pip310_venv/
+python3.10 -m venv pip310_venv
+source pip310_venv/bin/activate
+command -v python
+python -m ensurepip
+python -m pip install --upgrade build
+python -m build
+deactivate
diff --git a/plugins/HERON b/plugins/HERON
index af68aed570..cfc5d064eb 160000
--- a/plugins/HERON
+++ b/plugins/HERON
@@ -1 +1 @@
-Subproject commit af68aed570cba5f3319f70a1f5877a8ee22cbfc1
+Subproject commit cfc5d064ebce0f52b2d4d87199e3865bd459dc95
diff --git a/scripts/establish_conda_env.sh b/scripts/establish_conda_env.sh
index c0657535f9..eaee126a8d 100755
--- a/scripts/establish_conda_env.sh
+++ b/scripts/establish_conda_env.sh
@@ -108,10 +108,6 @@ function install_libraries()
     if [[ $ECE_VERBOSE == 0 ]]; then echo ... Installing libraries from conda-forge ...; fi
     if [[ $USE_MAMBA == TRUE ]]; then
         local PRECOMMAND=`$PYTHON_COMMAND ${RAVEN_LIB_HANDLER} ${INSTALL_OPTIONAL} ${OSOPTION} conda --action install --subset mamba`" $SET_PYTHON"
-        if [  "$MAMBA_SKIP" == "true" ]
-        then
-            PRECOMMAND=${PRECOMMAND/mamba/}
-        fi
         if [[ $ECE_VERBOSE == 0 ]]; then echo ... conda-forge pre-command: ${PRECOMMAND}; fi
         ${PRECOMMAND}
         local COMMAND=`echo $($PYTHON_COMMAND ${RAVEN_LIB_HANDLER} ${INSTALL_OPTIONAL} ${OSOPTION} conda --action install --subset forge --no-name)`
@@ -182,11 +178,7 @@ function create_libraries()
         echo ... temporarily using Python $WORKING_PYTHON_COMMAND for installation
     fi
     if [[ $USE_MAMBA == TRUE ]]; then
-        local PRECOMMAND=`$PYTHON_COMMAND ${RAVEN_LIB_HANDLER} ${INSTALL_OPTIONAL} ${OSOPTION} conda --action create --subset mamba`" $SET_PYTHON"
-        if [  "$MAMBA_SKIP" == "true" ]
-        then
-            PRECOMMAND=${PRECOMMAND/mamba/}
-        fi
+        local PRECOMMAND=`$WORKING_PYTHON_COMMAND ${RAVEN_LIB_HANDLER} ${INSTALL_OPTIONAL} ${OSOPTION} conda --action create --subset mamba`" $SET_PYTHON"
         if [[ $ECE_VERBOSE == 0 ]]; then echo ... conda-forge pre-command: $PRECOMMAND; fi
         ${PRECOMMAND}
         local COMMAND=`echo $($WORKING_PYTHON_COMMAND ${RAVEN_LIB_HANDLER} ${INSTALL_OPTIONAL} ${OSOPTION} conda --action install --subset forge --no-name)`
@@ -342,15 +334,6 @@ fi
 PROXY_COMM="" # proxy is none
 USE_MAMBA=TRUE # Use Mamba for installation
 
-#Note this complexity is because on one computer in 2023, mamba failed to
-# install correctly when mamba was in the base conda install.
-if command -v mamba;
-then
-    #This is used to skip installing mamba
-    MAMBA_SKIP="true"
-else
-    MAMBA_SKIP="false"
-fi
 
 # parse command-line arguments
 while test $# -gt 0