diff --git a/shell/detail/provisioning.cattle.io.cluster.vue b/shell/detail/provisioning.cattle.io.cluster.vue
index bf332504daf..ae20d3a9c57 100644
--- a/shell/detail/provisioning.cattle.io.cluster.vue
+++ b/shell/detail/provisioning.cattle.io.cluster.vue
@@ -30,6 +30,7 @@ import Socket, {
 import { get } from '@shell/utils/object';
 import CapiMachineDeployment from '@shell/models/cluster.x-k8s.io.machinedeployment';
 import { isAlternate } from '@shell/utils/platform';
+import { defaultTableSortGenerationFn } from '@shell/components/ResourceTable.vue';
 
 let lastId = 1;
 const ansiup = new AnsiUp();
@@ -638,6 +639,26 @@ export default {
         return day(time).format(this.dateTimeFormatStr);
       }
     },
+
+    machineSortGenerationFn() {
+      // The sort generation function creates a unique value and is used to create a key including sort details.
+      // The unique key determines if the list is redrawn or a cached version is shown.
+      // Because we ensure the 'not in a pool' group is there via a row, and timing issues, the unqiue key doesn't change
+      // after a machine is added/removed... so the list won't update... so we need to inject a string to ensure the key is fresh
+      const base = defaultTableSortGenerationFn(this.machineSchema, this.$store);
+
+      return base + (!!this.fakeMachines.length ? '-fake' : '');
+    },
+
+    nodeSortGenerationFn() {
+      // The sort generation function creates a unique value and is used to create a key including sort details.
+      // The unique key determines if the list is redrawn or a cached version is shown.
+      // Because we ensure the 'not in a pool' group is there via a row, and timing issues, the unqiue key doesn't change
+      // after a machine is added/removed... so the list won't update... so we need to inject a string to ensure the key is fresh
+      const base = defaultTableSortGenerationFn(this.mgmtNodeSchema, this.$store);
+
+      return base + (!!this.fakeNodes.length ? '-fake' : '');
+    },
   }
 };
 </script>
@@ -681,6 +702,7 @@ export default {
           :group-by="value.isCustom ? null : 'poolId'"
           group-ref="pool"
           :group-sort="['pool.nameDisplay']"
+          :sort-generation-fn="machineSortGenerationFn"
         >
           <template #main-row:isFake="{fullColspan}">
             <tr class="main-row">
@@ -765,6 +787,7 @@ export default {
           :group-by="value.isCustom ? null : 'spec.nodePoolName'"
           group-ref="pool"
           :group-sort="['pool.nameDisplay']"
+          :sort-generation-fn="nodeSortGenerationFn"
         >
           <template #main-row:isFake="{fullColspan}">
             <tr class="main-row">
diff --git a/shell/models/provisioning.cattle.io.cluster.js b/shell/models/provisioning.cattle.io.cluster.js
index 85bded2a473..a15e2e5920f 100644
--- a/shell/models/provisioning.cattle.io.cluster.js
+++ b/shell/models/provisioning.cattle.io.cluster.js
@@ -457,9 +457,9 @@ export default class ProvCluster extends SteveModel {
         return names.join('<br>');
       } else {
         const names = this.machines.filter((machine) => {
-          return machine.status.conditions.find(c => c.error && c.type === 'NodeHealthy');
+          return machine.status?.conditions?.find(c => c.error && c.type === 'NodeHealthy');
         }).map((machine) => {
-          if (machine.status.nodeRef?.name) {
+          if (machine.status?.nodeRef?.name) {
             return this.t('cluster.availabilityWarnings.node', { name: machine.status.nodeRef.name });
           }
 
diff --git a/shell/plugins/dashboard-store/actions.js b/shell/plugins/dashboard-store/actions.js
index 90c17ab9557..e1958ea5fd7 100644
--- a/shell/plugins/dashboard-store/actions.js
+++ b/shell/plugins/dashboard-store/actions.js
@@ -314,7 +314,8 @@ export default {
       dispatch('watch', {
         type,
         revision:  out.revision,
-        namespace: opt.watchNamespace
+        namespace: opt.watchNamespace,
+        force:     opt.forceWatch === true,
       });
     }
 
@@ -377,7 +378,8 @@ export default {
       dispatch('watch', {
         type,
         selector,
-        revision: res.revision
+        revision: res.revision,
+        force:    opt.forceWatch === true,
       });
     }
 
diff --git a/shell/plugins/steve/subscribe.js b/shell/plugins/steve/subscribe.js
index 18ef3319631..5120ed7d9a2 100644
--- a/shell/plugins/steve/subscribe.js
+++ b/shell/plugins/steve/subscribe.js
@@ -21,6 +21,7 @@ import Socket, {
   EVENT_DISCONNECT_ERROR,
   NO_WATCH,
   NO_SCHEMA,
+  REVISION_TOO_OLD
 } from '@shell/utils/socket';
 import { normalizeType } from '@shell/plugins/dashboard-store/normalize';
 import day from 'dayjs';
@@ -306,7 +307,7 @@ const sharedActions = {
 
     // If socket is in error don't try to watch.... unless we `force` it
     if ( !stop && !force && !getters.canWatch(params) ) {
-      console.error(`Cannot Watch [${ getters.storeName }]`, JSON.stringify(params)); // eslint-disable-line no-console
+      console.error(`Aborting Watch Request [${ getters.storeName }] (socket probably in error)`, JSON.stringify(params)); // eslint-disable-line no-console
 
       return;
     }
@@ -314,7 +315,10 @@ const sharedActions = {
     if ( !stop && getters.watchStarted({
       type, id, selector, namespace
     }) ) {
-      state.debugSocket && console.debug(`Already Watching [${ getters.storeName }]`, JSON.stringify(params)); // eslint-disable-line no-console
+      // eslint-disable-next-line no-console
+      state.debugSocket && console.debug(`Already Watching [${ getters.storeName }]`, {
+        type, id, selector, namespace
+      });
 
       return;
     }
@@ -693,6 +697,10 @@ const defaultActions = {
     } else if ( err.includes('failed to find schema') ) {
       commit('setInError', { type: msg.resourceType, reason: NO_SCHEMA });
     } else if ( err.includes('too old') ) {
+      // Set an error for (all) subs of this type. This..
+      // 1) blocks attempts by resource.stop to resub (as type is in error)
+      // 2) will be cleared when resyncWatch --> watch (with force) --> resource.start completes
+      commit('setInError', { type: msg.resourceType, reason: REVISION_TOO_OLD });
       dispatch('resyncWatch', msg);
     }
   },
@@ -700,12 +708,15 @@ const defaultActions = {
   /**
    * Steve only event
    *
-   * Steve only seems to send out `resource.stop` messages for two reasons
-   * - We have requested that the resource watch should be stopped and we receive this event as confirmation
-   * - Steve tells us that the resource is no longer watched
-   *
+   * Steve has stopped watching this resource. This happens for a couple of reasons
+   * - We have requested that the resource watch should be stopped (and we receive this event as confirmation)
+   * - Steve tells us that the resource watch has been stopped. Possible reasons
+   *   - The rancher <--> k8s socket closed (happens every ~30 mins on mgmt socket)
+   *   - Permissions has changed for the subscribed resource, so rancher closes socket
    */
-  'ws.resource.stop'({ getters, commit, dispatch }, msg) {
+  'ws.resource.stop'({
+    state, getters, commit, dispatch
+  }, msg) {
     const type = msg.resourceType;
     const obj = {
       type,
@@ -714,51 +725,23 @@ const defaultActions = {
       selector:  msg.selector
     };
 
-    // console.warn(`Resource stop: [${ getters.storeName }]`, msg); // eslint-disable-line no-console
+    state.debugSocket && console.info(`Resource Stop [${ getters.storeName }]`, type, msg); // eslint-disable-line no-console
+
+    if (!type) {
+      console.error(`Resource Stop [${ getters.storeName }]. Received resource.stop with an empty resourceType, aborting`, msg); // eslint-disable-line no-console
+
+      return;
+    }
 
     // If we're trying to watch this event, attempt to re-watch
     if ( getters['schemaFor'](type) && getters['watchStarted'](obj) ) {
       commit('setWatchStopped', obj);
-
-      // In summary, we need to re-watch but with a reliable `revision` (to avoid `too old` message kicking off a full re-fetch of all
-      // resources). To get a reliable `revision` go out and fetch the latest for that resource type, in theory our local cache should be
-      // up to date with that revision.
-
-      const revisionExisting = getters.nextResourceVersion(type, obj.id);
-
-      let revisionLatest;
-
-      if (revisionExisting) {
-        // Attempt to fetch the latest revision at the time the resource watch was stopped, in theory our local cache should be up to
-        // date with this
-        // Ideally we shouldn't need to fetch here and supply `0`, `-1` or `null` to start watching from the latest revision, however steve
-        // will send the current state of each resource via a `resource.created` event.
-        const opt = { limit: 1 };
-
-        opt.url = getters.urlFor(type, null, opt);
-        revisionLatest = dispatch('request', { opt, type } )
-          .then(res => res.revision)
-          .catch((err) => {
-            // For some reason we can't fetch a reasonable revision, so force a re-fetch
-            console.warn(`Resource error retrieving resourceVersion, forcing re-fetch`, type, ':', err); // eslint-disable-line no-console
-            dispatch('resyncWatch', msg);
-            throw err;
-          });
-      } else {
-        // Some v1 resource types don't have revisions (either at the collection or resource level), so we avoided making an API request
-        // for them
-        revisionLatest = Promise.resolve(null); // Null to ensure we don't go through `nextResourceVersion` again
-      }
-
-      setTimeout(() => {
-        // Delay a bit so that immediate start/error/stop causes
-        // only a slow infinite loop instead of a tight one.
-        revisionLatest.then(revision => dispatch('watch', { ...obj, revision }));
-      }, 5000);
+      dispatch('watch', obj);
     }
   },
 
   'ws.resource.create'(ctx, msg) {
+    ctx.state.debugSocket && console.info(`Resource Create [${ ctx.getters.storeName }]`, msg.resourceType, msg); // eslint-disable-line no-console
     queueChange(ctx, msg, true, 'Create');
   },
 
@@ -809,6 +792,8 @@ const defaultActions = {
     const data = msg.data;
     const type = data.type;
 
+    ctx.state.debugSocket && console.info(`Resource Remove [${ ctx.getters.storeName }]`, type, msg); // eslint-disable-line no-console
+
     if (type === SCHEMA) {
       const worker = (this.$workers || {})[ctx.getters.storeName];
 
diff --git a/shell/utils/socket.js b/shell/utils/socket.js
index 05a502580db..159adbe8d58 100644
--- a/shell/utils/socket.js
+++ b/shell/utils/socket.js
@@ -26,6 +26,7 @@ export const EVENT_DISCONNECT_ERROR = 'disconnect_error';
 
 export const NO_WATCH = 'NO_WATCH';
 export const NO_SCHEMA = 'NO_SCHEMA';
+export const REVISION_TOO_OLD = 'TOO_OLD';
 
 export default class Socket extends EventTarget {
   url;