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MSC2962: Managing power levels via Spaces #2962
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# MSC2962: Managing power levels via Spaces | ||||||||||
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MSC1772 defines Spaces: a new way to define groups of users and rooms in | ||||||||||
Matrix by describing them as a room. Originally MSC1772 attempted to define | ||||||||||
how you could apply permissions to Matrix rooms based on the membership of a | ||||||||||
space. However, this is effectively a separate concern from how you model spaces | ||||||||||
themselves, and so has been split out into a this separate MSC. | ||||||||||
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This MSC originally included restricting room membership based on space membership. | ||||||||||
This has been split into [MSC3083](https://github.com/matrix-org/matrix-doc/pull/3083). | ||||||||||
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Thus, the goal of this MSC is to set the power levels in a room based on | ||||||||||
membership of a space. | ||||||||||
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### Managing power levels via spaces | ||||||||||
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One use-case for spaces is to help manage power levels across a group of | ||||||||||
rooms. For example: "Jim has just joined the management team at my company. He | ||||||||||
should have moderator rights across all of the company rooms." | ||||||||||
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Since the event-authorisation rules cannot easily be extended to consider | ||||||||||
membership in other rooms, we must map any changes in space membership onto | ||||||||||
real `m.room.power_levels` events. | ||||||||||
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#### Extending the power_levels event | ||||||||||
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We now have a mix of manually- and automatically- maintained power-level | ||||||||||
data. To support this, we extend the existing `m.room.power_levels` event to | ||||||||||
add an `auto_users` key: | ||||||||||
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```js | ||||||||||
{ | ||||||||||
"type": "m.room.power_levels", | ||||||||||
"content": { | ||||||||||
"users": { | ||||||||||
"@roomadmin:example.com": 100 | ||||||||||
}, | ||||||||||
"auto_users": { | ||||||||||
"@spaceuser1:example.org": 50 | ||||||||||
} | ||||||||||
} | ||||||||||
} | ||||||||||
``` | ||||||||||
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A user's power level is then specified by an entry in *either* `users` or | ||||||||||
`auto_users`. Where a user appears in both sections, `users` takes precedence. | ||||||||||
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The new `auto_users` key is maintained by a bot user, as described below. | ||||||||||
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`auto_users` is subject to all of the same authorization checks as the existing | ||||||||||
`users` key (see https://matrix.org/docs/spec/rooms/v1#authorization-rules, | ||||||||||
paragraphs 10a, 10d, 10e). | ||||||||||
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This change necessitates a new room version. | ||||||||||
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#### Representing the mapping from spaces to power levels | ||||||||||
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The desired mapping from spaces to power levels is defined in a new state | ||||||||||
event type, `m.room.power_level_mappings`, set in the room whose PLs are being | ||||||||||
manipulated. The content should contain a `mappings` key which is an | ||||||||||
ordered list, for example: | ||||||||||
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```js | ||||||||||
{ | ||||||||||
"type": "m.room.power_level_mappings", | ||||||||||
"state_key": "", | ||||||||||
"content": { | ||||||||||
"mappings": [ | ||||||||||
{ | ||||||||||
"space": "!mods:example.org", | ||||||||||
There was a problem hiding this comment. Choose a reason for hiding this commentThe reason will be displayed to describe this comment to others. Learn more. nit: s/space/room to inherit some of the generic behaviour of restricted rooms. Ie: it seems perfect valid to say that #CompanyAnnouncements is synchronized with #CompanyExecutives without a need for a space between them. There was a problem hiding this comment. Choose a reason for hiding this commentThe reason will be displayed to describe this comment to others. Learn more. Are these aliases or IDs? I would recommend using |
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"via": ["example.org"], | ||||||||||
"power_level": 50 | ||||||||||
}, | ||||||||||
{ | ||||||||||
"space": "!users:example.org", | ||||||||||
"via": ["example.org"], | ||||||||||
"power_level": 1 | ||||||||||
} | ||||||||||
] | ||||||||||
} | ||||||||||
} | ||||||||||
``` | ||||||||||
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This means that a new `m.room.power_levels` event would be generated whenever | ||||||||||
the membership of either `!mods` or `!users` changes. If a user is in both | ||||||||||
spaces, `!mods` takes priority because that is listed first. | ||||||||||
There was a problem hiding this comment. Choose a reason for hiding this commentThe reason will be displayed to describe this comment to others. Learn more. @deepbluev7 commented:
@Sorunome commented:
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If `mappings` is not a list, the whole event is ignored. Any entries in the list | ||||||||||
which do not match the expected format are ignored. | ||||||||||
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There was a problem hiding this comment. Choose a reason for hiding this commentThe reason will be displayed to describe this comment to others. Learn more. Reject as this affects the server-side authorisation checks
Suggested change
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#### Implementing the mapping | ||||||||||
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When a new room is created, the server implicitly adds a "room admin bot" to | ||||||||||
the room, with the maximum power-level of any of the initial users. | ||||||||||
(Homeservers should implement this "bot" internally, rather than requiring | ||||||||||
separate software to be installed.) | ||||||||||
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It is proposed that this "admin bot" use the special user ID with empty | ||||||||||
There was a problem hiding this comment. Choose a reason for hiding this commentThe reason will be displayed to describe this comment to others. Learn more. @t3chguy commented on 26 Nov 2020
@erdnaxeli commented on 26 Nov 2020
@t3chguy commented on 26 Nov 2020
@erdnaxeli commented on 26 Nov 2020 Good questions, I have no idea :D No matter where the bot is heberged, it could go down. I think we need a way for room's admin to setup a new one. This is actually just inviting the bot and giving it a power level 100. You could invite the one on your HS (assuming you trust your own HS). Maybe this whole HS's admin bot should be specified alongside this one. @richvdh commented on 26 Nov 2020 as @erdnaxeli says, the admin bot is part of the HS of the room creator. and yes, if that server goes away, we have a problem. The solution probably amounts to having more than one admin bot in the room, which in turn means having good answers to "how do they decide which one should actually do the work". Whether the extra bots get automatically added whenever a user on another server is granted PL100, or requiring an explicit operation as @erdnaxeli suggests, is open to debate. (I also think, though it's not written here, that the idea was that if the room creator left the room, so would the admin bot, to avoid accumulating rooms on the server where there are no real users.) @ashkitten commented on 26 Nov 2020 it seems to me that there is no good way to actually synchronize the permissions and room state across multiple rooms, but maybe we should rethink if that's actually necessary. would it work to simply introduce inheritance so that when looking up permissions and power levels it would defer to the parent room (with the ability to override that per child room)? @richvdh commented on 27 Nov 2020 @ashkitten I'm not quite sure what you're suggesting, but it sounds a bit like the dismissed idea at https://github.com/matrix-org/matrix-doc/pull/1772/files#diff-cdaa2b5bfe73f40db1903d17b1d242d8caa54d4af81e78e0396a369bcd9a1b90R304-R312? @deepbluev7 commented on 27 Nov 2020 One of the biggest issues with current groups is, that they are bound to a specific server. spaces via rooms was supposed to fix that, at least someone may have said that at some point. Binding the power_level manipulation to a single server again, sounds like a step in the wrong direction. When you add multiple bots on multiple servers, you then run into the issue, that you need to do conflict resolution. Which means you are basically implementing state res a level above normal state res. I think it would be much more natural to extend state res to work across multiple rooms instead in a few specific cases. Yes, that is complicated, but it gives you a lot more tools to work with and can be useful for community only join rules as well. Otherwise you don't really need the bot user, you could just as well implement all of this clientside without reserving special IDs (well, for the most part, admins would need to join all rooms). @richvdh commented on 27 Nov 2020
natural maybe, but would absolutely annihilate our chances of landing this feature within the next year. Seriously, I'm pretty sure getting state-res working across rooms would be an entire PhD thesis in its own right. If people want to take on that research, I would be very interested to read the outcome. Meanwhile, I'm not prepared to block Spaces on a feature that would take months of research. We need to work with the tools we have available today and that absolutely excludes cross-room state-res/event-auth. This is simply not up for debate. In any case, this suggestion is off-topic for this comment thread, which is about "where does the bot run", not "how can we completely change the proposal so you don't need a bot". @InfiniteWorldSoftware commented:
Probably, unless the bot would exist on all participating servers. The problem then would be: what happens if the bots disagree? If the bots don't exist on all participating homeservers, MSC1772 is really nothing more than a more complex /r0/groups in the spec. @ara4n commented: the bot is just used to keep PLs updated based on group memberships (which is a separate feature to the core spaces proposal anyway, and should be split out into a separate MSC - we only wrote it in one place to ensure it was considered when doing the core MSC). To say that MSC1772 is "just /groups" if the PL-management bot sits on a single server is completely wrong (/groups doesn't even have PL management).
Yes, if you end up with multiple servers doing PL-management, you need some way of conflict resolution. However, this could be as simple as a social mechanism: if the admins of a room decide they want @:matrix.org rather than @:example.com to expand out the PLs, then they could make give the right bot power to do so. This feels like a perfectly practical pragmatic solution that avoids us being sucked into the complexity of cross-room state res. @deepbluev7 commented
I guess that is a good point. In theory, as long as an admin on server B still exists and they have admin capabilities in all rooms, they should be able to change the group bot in all rooms, even if server A goes down. It does have the annoying side-effects of permission managements across rooms being broken until you notice A is down and I'm not really fond of that. At the small server scale servers often go down and there is not really one reliable server you can trust, unless you add one of the bigger ones. Those cases are at least recoverable though, while multiple bots have a few unrecoverable edge cases. For the first iteration that is probably completely fine and if it turns out to be an issue, since it doesn't need a lot of invasive changes to implement, it should be replaceable with a better solution, if someone can come up with one. |
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localpart `@:example.com`. | ||||||||||
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This bot is then responsible for monitoring the `power_level_mappings` state, | ||||||||||
and peeking into any spaces mentioned in the content. It can then issue new | ||||||||||
`m.room.power_levels` events, updating the value of `auto_users`, whenever the | ||||||||||
membership of the spaces in question changes. | ||||||||||
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It is possible that the admin bot is unable to perform the mapping (for | ||||||||||
example, the space cannot be peeked; or the membership of the space is so large | ||||||||||
that it cannot be expanded into a single `m.room.power_levels` event). It is | ||||||||||
proposed that the bot could notify the room of any problems via | ||||||||||
`m.room.message` messages of type `m.msgtype`. | ||||||||||
There was a problem hiding this comment. Choose a reason for hiding this commentThe reason will be displayed to describe this comment to others. Learn more. Not sure what the exact intention was, but with Extensible Events and such on the horizon, feels like we can denote these by feature name rather than schema.
Suggested change
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Clearly, updating this event type is extremely powerful. It is expected that | ||||||||||
access to it is itself restricted via `power_levels`. This could be enforced by | ||||||||||
the admin bot so that no `m.room.power_levels` events are generated unless | ||||||||||
`power_level_mappings` is appropriately restricted. | ||||||||||
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Some sort of rate-limiting may be required to handle the case where the mapped | ||||||||||
space has a high rate of membership churn. | ||||||||||
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#### Alternatives | ||||||||||
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Things that were considered and dismissed: | ||||||||||
There was a problem hiding this comment. Choose a reason for hiding this commentThe reason will be displayed to describe this comment to others. Learn more. @grinapo commented on 17 Nov 2020 I have read the above and dismissed ideas but I am not sure whether the following was in: The space has an automatically existing user, like This space_user would act on space defined states, like
Space admins who have power to set events in the space room may do that, and space_user would reflect these in rooms it has the power to (and possibly the room member events in the space room define as). If a room admin disagrees with the space admin s/he kickbans the space user. This machanism may let all and any events reflected in the member rooms without the need to tell now what these events may be in the future. @richvdh commented on 20 Nov 2020 Member we did consider a pseudo-user-per-space, but it felt a bit redundant. What would be the advantage over having a single pseudo-user which can work on all spaces? Beyond the userid, I'm not clear how your suggestion differs from our existing proposal? @grinapo commented on 23 Nov 2020
Why a "normal" [looking] user? Why multiple users?
It was not clear to me how the proposal handles the possible differences (or power split) between space admin(s) and room admin(s). @ara4n commented per-space bots (or puppeting a real admin user for the space) is certainly interesting to just make the problem of "who is tweaking the PLs"? a purely social admin one - especially if you have multiple admins trying to compete for control of the same room, as per grin's example. |
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* Extend the auth rules to include state from other rooms. Although this feels | ||||||||||
cleaner, a robust implementation would be a hugely complicated | ||||||||||
undertaking. In particular, room state resolution is closely linked to event | ||||||||||
authorisation, and is already highly complex and hard to reason about, and | ||||||||||
yet is fundamental to the security of Matrix. | ||||||||||
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In short, we believe such a change would require significant research and | ||||||||||
modelling. A solution based on such a foundation could not practically be | ||||||||||
implemented in the near future. | ||||||||||
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* Rather than defining the mapping in the room, define a template power-levels | ||||||||||
event in a parent space, which will be inherited by all child rooms. For example: | ||||||||||
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```js | ||||||||||
{ | ||||||||||
"type": "m.space.child_power_levels", | ||||||||||
"state_key": "", | ||||||||||
"content": { | ||||||||||
// content as per regular power_levels event | ||||||||||
} | ||||||||||
} | ||||||||||
``` | ||||||||||
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There was a problem hiding this comment. Choose a reason for hiding this commentThe reason will be displayed to describe this comment to others. Learn more. This is the alternative I support the most. |
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Problem 1: No automated mapping from space membership to user list, so the | ||||||||||
user list would have to be maintained manually. On the other hand, this | ||||||||||
could be fine in some situations, where we're just using the space to group | ||||||||||
together rooms, rather than as a user list. | ||||||||||
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Problem 2: No scope for nuance, where different rooms have slightly | ||||||||||
different PLs. | ||||||||||
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Problem 3: what happens to rooms where several spaces claim it as a child? | ||||||||||
They end up fighting? | ||||||||||
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Problem 4: Doesn't allow for random room admins to delegate their PLs to a | ||||||||||
space without being admins in that space. | ||||||||||
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* To implement the mapping, we require any user who is an admin in the | ||||||||||
There was a problem hiding this comment. Choose a reason for hiding this commentThe reason will be displayed to describe this comment to others. Learn more. The more I think about it, the more I feel that this - with some improvements - is a much better solution than the current proposal. It makes a lot of sense for powerlevel changes in rooms to be made by the person who actually made them in the space, much more sense than an anonymous bot user with ambient authority, IMO. It's also much easier to reason about. It would also remove the need for spaces-as-roles from a powerlevels perspective (hopefully this can be eliminated for join rules in some way as well!), and make all the hard questions regarding whose homeserver is authorative for the bot user, completely obsolete. Those authority questions in particular are not ones where I expect anyone to have a good answer any time soon, because - as I believe someone else pointed out in another thread - we will effectively just be reinventing a second layer of stateres there. I don't think that is desirable, especially considering the expressed desire to avoid changing the stateres algorithm due to its fragility. An additional benefit of this approach, is that there is a semantically obvious way to copy over default powerlevel requirements too, not just user-powerlevel assignments. This doesn't seem to be part of the PL sync proposal yet, but IMO should be. In terms of API design, a 'synchronized powerlevel change' can be expressed either as a regular powerlevel change on the space, or as a special operation / event type. I don't yet have a strong preference for either, and would be interested in arguments for/against either. The situation of "cannot synchronize PLs to rooms that the person does not have access in" is IMO sufficiently handled by simply making it an error condition to apply synced PL changes to a space without having the necessary access in all child rooms, with an optional "then just do it for the rooms where it's possible" flag. This allows for eg. a "you do not have permission to update all rooms, do you want to continue anyway?" UI. That having been said, once the PLs have been manually synchronized across rooms once, by each room's admins, it should from that point on be self-sustaining; any space-wide PL change that allows a new admin to change PLs, will also grant that new admin those permissions for rooms. Therefore, "cannot change in all rooms" should be a rare occurrence. This also addresses the "what if someone is using it for a personal room collection" usecase, as in those circumstances the user simply won't be able to synchronize PL changes across those rooms unless they have the needed PL within those rooms; in which case they can still choose to do so "where possible", following the aforementioned UI. To address the main objections here: The problem of Bob not wanting to be a member of all such rooms, is pretty easy to to address: simply make "being a member of a room" not a prerequisite for setting powerlevels in a room at all. This requires a new room version, but only requires a change in authorization rules, not in the stateres algorithm, which makes it a low-risk change. Likewise, since powerlevel and other permission changes are already gated by powerlevel restrictions anyway, and so would normally not be creatable by someone who doesn't have some sort of prior reputation in a room, permitting permission change events from non-joined users would be a safe change. I'm thinking specifically of making the following change in the authorization rules, changing:
... to:
(Further permission change events, like The problem of Bob generating PLs every time someone comes and goes from the space... is this really a problem? Wouldn't the set of members with any non-default powerlevels at all normally be pretty limited, with those powerlevels being normally assigned? It does not seem necessary to me to specify powerlevels for every user which did not explicitly receive a special one, and I don't think a user needs to be present in a room to receive a powerlevel assignment (at the time it is actually made on a space-wide level)? So there should be no need to change any powerlevels upon join/leave at all. The problem of people not being able to mirror a space - is that really true? As far as I can tell, that's precisely what this approach would allow for, and with sensible PL propagation semantics too. |
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space (ie, anyone who has permission to change the access rights in the | ||||||||||
space) to also be admins and members of any child rooms. | ||||||||||
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Say Bob is an admin in #doglovers and makes a change that should be | ||||||||||
propagated to all children of that space. His server is then responsible | ||||||||||
for generating a power-levels event on his behalf for each room. | ||||||||||
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Problem 1: Bob may not want to be a member of all such rooms. | ||||||||||
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Problem 2: It will feel odd that Bob's user is seen to be generating PL | ||||||||||
events every time someone comes and goes from the space. | ||||||||||
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Problem 3: It doesn't allow users to set up their own rooms to mirror a | ||||||||||
space, without having any particular control in that space (though it is | ||||||||||
There was a problem hiding this comment. Choose a reason for hiding this commentThe reason will be displayed to describe this comment to others. Learn more. @MadLittleMods asks "What does mirroring a space mean?". @richvdh, any idea? There was a problem hiding this comment. Choose a reason for hiding this commentThe reason will be displayed to describe this comment to others. Learn more. sorry, this wasn't terribly clear. I'm talking about the idea that you want your PLs or memberships in a room to be inherited from a space: How do I set up a company internal room without being an admin in the company space? There was a problem hiding this comment. Choose a reason for hiding this commentThe reason will be displayed to describe this comment to others. Learn more. @richvdh Ahhh, "inherit from a space" makes this line a lot more clear. And your example makes it even more obvious. We should add it to the MSC too ⏩ |
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questionable if that is actually a useful feature, at least as far as PLs are | ||||||||||
concerned.) | ||||||||||
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* Another alternative for implementing the mapping: the user that created the | ||||||||||
relationship event (or rather, their homeserver, using the user's ID) is | ||||||||||
responsible for copying access controls into the room. | ||||||||||
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Problem 1: What do you do if the admin who sets up the PL relationship | ||||||||||
disappears? The humans have to step in and create a new admin? | ||||||||||
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Problem 2: Again it seems odd that these PL changes come from a single user. | ||||||||||
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* Is it possible to implement the mappings from multiple users, some of which | ||||||||||
may not have PL 100? After all it's possible to set rooms up so that you can | ||||||||||
change PL events without having PL 100. | ||||||||||
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It gets horribly messy very quickly, where some admin users can make some | ||||||||||
changes. So some get supressed and then get made later anyway by a different | ||||||||||
admin user? | ||||||||||
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* Is it possble to apply finer-grained control to the | ||||||||||
`m.room.power_level_mappings` event than "you must be max(PL)"? Applying | ||||||||||
restrictions post-hoc (ie, having the admin bot ignore settings which were | ||||||||||
set by underpriviledged users) is an absolute minefield. It might be possible | ||||||||||
to apply restrictions at the point that the event is set, but it sounds | ||||||||||
fiddly and it's not clear there is a real use-case. | ||||||||||
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* This solution smells a bit funny because of the expansions (causing all the | ||||||||||
redundant mxids everywhere as the groups constantly get expanded every time | ||||||||||
something happens). | ||||||||||
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* Could we could put a hash of the space membership in the PL instead of | ||||||||||
expanding the whole list, so that servers have a way to check if they are | ||||||||||
applying the same list as everyone else? | ||||||||||
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Feels like it will have bad failure modes: what is a server supposed to do | ||||||||||
when the hash doesn't match? | ||||||||||
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* Could version the space memberships, so you can compare with the source of | ||||||||||
the space membership data? | ||||||||||
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* PL events just record the delta from the previous one? (So a new server | ||||||||||
would need to get all the PLs ever, but… is that a bad thing?) ... maybe | ||||||||||
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These optimisations can all be punted down the road to a later room version. | ||||||||||
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* Other ways of handling the merge of automatic and manual PL settings: | ||||||||||
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* Add hints to the automated mapper so that it can maintain manually-assigned | ||||||||||
PLs. This could either be another field in `power_levels` which plays no | ||||||||||
part in event auth: | ||||||||||
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```js | ||||||||||
{ | ||||||||||
"type": "m.room.power_levels", | ||||||||||
"content": { | ||||||||||
"users": { | ||||||||||
"@roomadmin:example.com": 100, | ||||||||||
"@spaceuser1:example.org": 50 | ||||||||||
}, | ||||||||||
"manual_users": { | ||||||||||
"@roomadmin:example.com": 100 | ||||||||||
} | ||||||||||
} | ||||||||||
} | ||||||||||
``` | ||||||||||
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... or stored in a separate event. Clients would be responsible for updating | ||||||||||
both copies of the manually-assigned PLs on change. | ||||||||||
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Problem: Requiring clients to make two changes feels fragile. What if they | ||||||||||
get it wrong? what if they don't know about the second copy because they | ||||||||||
haven't been designed to work in rooms in spaces? | ||||||||||
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* Require that even regular PLs go through the automated mapper, by making | ||||||||||
them an explicit input to that mapper, for example with entries in the | ||||||||||
`m.room.power_level_mappings` event suggested above. | ||||||||||
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Problem: Requires clients to distinguish between rooms where there is an | ||||||||||
automated mapper, and those where the client should manipulate the PLs | ||||||||||
directly. (Maybe that's not so bad? The presence of the `mappings` event | ||||||||||
should be enough? But still sucks that there are two ways to do the same | ||||||||||
thing, and clients which don't support spaces will get it wrong.) | ||||||||||
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## Dependencies | ||||||||||
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* [MSC1772](https://github.com/matrix-org/matrix-doc/pull/1772) for room spaces. | ||||||||||
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## Security considerations | ||||||||||
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* The peek server has significant power. For example, a poorly chosen peek | ||||||||||
server could lie about the space membership and add an | ||||||||||
`@evil_user:example.org`. | ||||||||||
|
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## Unstable prefix | ||||||||||
|
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The following mapping will be used for identifiers in this MSC during | ||||||||||
development: | ||||||||||
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Proposed final identifier | Purpose | Development identifier | ||||||||||
------------------------------- | ------- | ---- | ||||||||||
`m.room.power_level_mappings` | event type | `org.matrix.msc1772.room.power_level_mappings` | ||||||||||
`auto_users` | key in `m.room.power_levels` event | `org.matrix.msc1772.auto_users` |
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@deepbluev7 commented:
@joepie91 commented:
@Sorunome commented:
That way we make sure that we completely decouple the infinitly-growing object structure and thus truly allow rooms of unlimited sizes. This would obviously require a new room version and clients would start to have to do stuff depending on room version (promoting / demoting users)
I commented:
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yeah, I like it too. It's orthogonal to spaces though.