Summit Topic: Open standards & Web compatibility

[joyeecheung]

Just noticed that we don't have a slot assigned to this topic, since we just started the open standards team recently, it seems to be a good idea to start a discussion at the summit around this topic.

I propose that for this summit, we focus on discussing around the process that we wish to implement in Node.js core regarding standards participation, implementation, and compatibility with the Web - try to start small and not to extend to the broader Node.js ecosystem,
and not to dive into the implementation details this time, because we will only have one and a half hour for this session in a room with many people. Of course there will be plenty of opportunities to talk about topics outside of core in the hallway and online in smaller groups.

Proposed agenda && Minutes

https://docs.google.com/document/d/1HmhBOIYydVQQ1YCsVASuS2gv6vfYv59ws6_xj86Lsi8/edit

cc @nodejs/open-standards

[littledan]

If you'll be using Zoom, I would love to call into this discussion.

[benjamingr]

Thanks Joyee that clarifies things. To be clear I absolutely understand if you don't record it knowing that it requires work and reduces momentum in sessions.

(That said, I think using Zoom makes sense and Daniel can contribute to the meeting)

TCQ doesn't save notes yet - this is actually something I intend to work on in the next few months now that my life is a bit more stable and as a Vue.js project to work on :)

[joyeecheung]

To be clear I absolutely understand if you don't record it knowing that it requires work and reduces momentum in sessions.

Thanks for understanding, but I actually really want to make sure we record them :D (I want to make sure we record and take notes for all of our sessions, to be honest). It may take a few minutes to set the stuff up but if we don't do that, we are very likely to walk out of the room without anything actionable/any consensus and will forget what we talk about in a few weeks, then the session may as well never happen.

TCQ doesn't save notes yet - this is actually something I intend to work on in the next few months now that my life is a bit more stable and as a Vue.js project to work on :)

Awesome! Yes please!

[mhdawson]

@joyeecheung looks like a great agenda.

[nomadtechie]

@joyeecheung will there be an option to remote dial-in to this portion of the meeting?

Some of our Reliability, Standards & Testing team at Bocoup who help maintain Web Platform Tests may be interested in participating cc @jugglinmike @zcorpan @rwaldron @boazsender

[joyeecheung]

@nomadtechie Based on the discussion in #111 (assuming no one is against my idea in #111 (comment)) If this session ends up in the main room we will use Zoom for the session so will probably paste a Zoom link here before the session starts, also the main room sessions will be broadcasted on Youtube if we manage to set it up properly. If the session ends up in a breakout room, we will try to use Google Hanghout and there probably won't be broadcasts (since there is only one Node.js Youtube account) but we will try to set up remote participation as well (also there will be a link).

(Just a fair warning, we didn't get the remote participation set up very well the last time in Berlin, there were camera being blocked and remote participants who didn't get a chance to talk, but we will try to improve this time!)

[nomadtechie]

That sounds great. Thank you @joyeecheung!

[joyeecheung]

I have created a google doc that we can use as basis to take notes for the meeting.

https://docs.google.com/document/d/1HmhBOIYydVQQ1YCsVASuS2gv6vfYv59ws6_xj86Lsi8/edit?usp=sharing

I also added a section to the top of the agenda, which I think makes sense given the time we have for the session is limited.

Goals of this session

• To review the current status of Web compatibility in Node.js
• To discuss around the process that we wish to implement in Node.js core regarding standards participation, implementation, and compatibility with the Web
• To discuss about the organization of the open standards effort
• To come up with actionable items that we can follow up on after this session

Feel free to edit the doc prior to the session, but please leave a note here after you do so so we can keep track of the iterations.

[SMotaal]

@joyeecheung I'm so sorry for not returning back to you:

@SMotaal So if I understand correctly, you meant that we need to discuss about having code examples to demonstrate interoperability (i.e. we need documentation, and how to start an effort towards that direction, .etc), but not actually discussing about concrete code examples? That sounds doable to me (I mean, in a physical room)!

This is exactly my hope. Coming from the Modules group and my own experimentations with isomorphic code patterns in unbundled ESM, I find that interoperability has largely depended on bundler magic — from the perspective of users of those tools without really knowing what happens to their code.

Complex shimming aside, genuine understanding of writing adaptive code, graceful fallback, effective and efficient platform utilization... etc., in my opinion those are inseparable basic aspects of the JavaScript language. If JavaScript developers will be encouraged to avoid understanding them because tools will do it for them, then sadly we are helping perpetuate the false sentiments that we are all working hard to change about the JavaScript developer community.

Sorry for being a little passionate here.

EDIT: Understand them, then use the tools to get them done, not the other way around.

[SMotaal]

I was not sure where this best fits in the agenda so I simply added that as a comment.

[joyeecheung]

@SMotaal If I understand correctly #106 (comment) can be summarized as bullet point "Recipes for migration v.s. Tools that automate migration"?

[joyeecheung]

Also a few alterations to the agenda after talking to a few people at the summit yesterday

• Add time boxes (there should be plenty of time to chat casually after the whole thing, according to my experience yesterday, provided not everybody is rushing to the airport)
• Add

Organization (5min)

• Setting up Zoom
• Find note takers

• Revamp the last item a bit, it now looks like

Participation in standards bodies for future standards (30min)

• How we can provide constructive feedback to standards bodies and represent the spectrum of opinions in core
  • Representatives? Pre-meetings?
• What communication channel (e.g. meetings, conferences, IMs, GitHub) we can use to
  • Synchronize about our work
  • Report to other collaborators/the community about the status of our work
  • Get feedback from the community and to improve inclusivity
• Partnership opportunities between standards bodies
  • Specify node-related things
  • Help standard bodies with organizational work (meetings, participation process, documentation)
  • What should our image be in standards bodies? What are our values? Visions?

[joyeecheung]

BTW I minimized some previous comments about agenda bashing to make this thread smaller

[joyeecheung]

So, there seems to be some miscommunication. IIRC, we will only have 1 hour (2:30-3:30) for this session after #118 but there is another free slot before the session starts. @mcollina Can we move this to the slot (1:30) for the previous breakout (free) and extend to 1 hour and a half?

[mcollina]

Sure send a PR

[joyeecheung]

Update: the session will be at 1:30 - 2:45 in Main Room (121)

After observing a few sessions I don't think it's feasible to use TCQ in a tight schedule like this - too much overhead to click the buttons and put things into the queue while people speak extremely fast in the room

[joyeecheung]

Zoom link: https://zoom.us/j/383984667