IrcLog2008 07 21

17:18:02  *      bdbaddog (n=[bdeegan@adsl-71-131-30-2.dsl.sntc01.pacbell.net](mailto:bdeegan@adsl-71-131-30-2.dsl.sntc01.pacbell.net)) has joined #scons 
18:51:06  *      stevenknight (n=[stevenkn@69.36.227.131](mailto:stevenkn@69.36.227.131)) has joined #scons 
18:51:35  *      [GregoryNoel](GregoryNoel) is no longer marked as being away 
18:51:48  <[GregoryNoel](GregoryNoel)>  Hey, Steven... 
18:53:59  <stevenknight> hi greg 
18:54:26  <[GregoryNoel](GregoryNoel)>  I hope Gary can make it; he sounded dragged out in his note. 
18:54:30  <stevenknight> on the late shuttle tonight, so i turn into a pumpkin early  :-( 
18:54:36  <stevenknight> agreed re: Gary 
18:55:22  <stevenknight> he said he'd updated the spreadsheet, but i only see his comments on early issues 
18:56:05  *      [GregoryNoel](GregoryNoel) is still pulling up the spreadsheet 
18:59:22  <[GregoryNoel](GregoryNoel)>  Ah, Brandon is adding comments.  But you're right; I don't see Gary's comments past the initial few. 
19:00:34  <[GregoryNoel](GregoryNoel)>  Brandon, are you here for the bug meeting? 
19:00:46  <[GregoryNoel](GregoryNoel)>  Or anyone else? 
19:02:48  <Azverkan>     I'm here 
19:02:52  <Azverkan>     was still typing 
19:03:00  <[GregoryNoel](GregoryNoel)>  Hey, Brandon... 
19:03:10  <stevenknight> hi brandon 
19:03:43  <Azverkan>     hey 
19:04:04  <[GregoryNoel](GregoryNoel)>  Can you keep going, but split your attention here? 
19:04:09  <Azverkan>     yep 
19:04:19  <[GregoryNoel](GregoryNoel)>  OK, shall we proceed? 
19:04:23  <stevenknight> since we have three + gary's comments, and the clock's ticking, shall we get started then? 
19:04:26  <stevenknight> yes 
19:04:35  <stevenknight> 2133: 
19:05:01  <stevenknight> the more that i think about it, i'm on the fence like gary 
19:05:44  <[GregoryNoel](GregoryNoel)>  I think I'd move from INVALID to WONTFIX, but I still think it's not a bug 
19:05:44  <stevenknight> but it's still pretty common and not unreasonable usage 
19:06:00  <[GregoryNoel](GregoryNoel)>  Really?  What's the use case? 
19:06:16  <stevenknight> hmm, well maybe not *common* per se 
19:06:21  <stevenknight> just surprising 
19:06:38  <stevenknight> you want to run a post-processing script after building the target 
19:06:48  <stevenknight> the post-processing script is built locally in your tree 
19:07:09  <stevenknight> you [AddPostAction](AddPostAction)() the script and expect that SCons will make sure it's built before it tries to execute it 
19:07:16  <stevenknight> like it does with the regular Actions 
19:07:39  <[GregoryNoel](GregoryNoel)>  Yeah, but the next run, the post-processing doesn't get done since the command is already built. 
19:07:36  <stevenknight> i guess it comes down to whether or not people should think an Action is an Action is an Action 
19:07:54  <stevenknight> regardless of whether a Builder or [AddPostAction](AddPostAction) associates it with the target 
19:08:21  <[GregoryNoel](GregoryNoel)>  I think it's bad design, for sure 
19:08:32  <stevenknight> [AddPostAction](AddPostAction)() in general?  I agree 
19:08:44  <[GregoryNoel](GregoryNoel)>  No, this use case, running a command as part of its own build. 
19:08:50  <stevenknight> ah 
19:09:04  <[GregoryNoel](GregoryNoel)>  I just don't see any real reason to run the command just after building it and no other time. 
19:09:05  <Azverkan>     Feels more like a side effect of how builders are implemented that being a required feature to me 
19:09:47  <stevenknight> I don't know, i do see people using it for things like unit test executables 
19:10:03  <Azverkan>     You have two types of these post actions, some that you want to always run and some that you only want to run after the executable changes 
19:10:09  <[GregoryNoel](GregoryNoel)>  For unit tests, you can use a synthetic target 
19:10:12  <stevenknight> but you can argue that's just because we do a lousy job with tests right now 
19:10:27  <Azverkan>     and in both cases they may or may not have real targets, but fake targets like the windows registry getting updated etc... 
19:10:37  *      stevenknight agrees with Azverkan 
19:10:47  <Azverkan>     I think the real fix is to make Alias() more interchangeable with File() 
19:11:03  <[GregoryNoel](GregoryNoel)>  yes 
19:11:05  <stevenknight> yes yes yes 
19:11:07  <Azverkan>     there are some cases where you have to make a File() that does not exist to work around limitations in Alias() 
19:11:21  <[GregoryNoel](GregoryNoel)>  yes 
19:11:41  <stevenknight> okay, i can see WONTFIXing this in favor of a more comprehensive solution involving being able to use Alias 
19:11:48  <stevenknight> as both a source and a real Dependency 
19:11:53  <[GregoryNoel](GregoryNoel)>  I'll go for that. 
19:12:04  <stevenknight> like Brandon said 
19:12:16  <stevenknight> okay, done 
19:13:00  <stevenknight> I'll open a new one to track the Alias-wherever-you-can-use-File enhancement 
19:12:51  <[GregoryNoel](GregoryNoel)>  2134 
19:13:03  <stevenknight> 2134: 
19:13:45  <stevenknight> Greg, did you have a particular 2.x feature in mind to make this easier? 
19:13:46  <[GregoryNoel](GregoryNoel)>  2133 spinoff: "Synthetic Targets" 
19:13:55  <stevenknight> oh, wait, just saw it in your comment 
19:13:57  <[GregoryNoel](GregoryNoel)>  'attribute' 
19:14:30  <stevenknight> gotta transfer buses, expect short disconnect 
19:14:40  *      stevenknight has quit ("Leaving") 
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19:16:41  <[GregoryNoel](GregoryNoel)>  I just don't know if it's worth trying to implement in the 1.x timeframe if we're just going to reengineer it in 2.x, especially since 1.x is already getting so full. 
19:16:47  <stevenknight> and we're back... 
19:17:11  <stevenknight> yeah, 1.x is definitely full 
19:17:19  <stevenknight> no one's beating down the doors for this 
19:17:25  <stevenknight> let's go ahead and push it out to 2.x 
19:17:30  <stevenknight> (assume we're still on 2134) 
19:17:37  <[GregoryNoel](GregoryNoel)>  works for me (yes) 
19:17:57  <stevenknight> okay, 2134, 2.x, p3 (?) 
19:18:10  <[GregoryNoel](GregoryNoel)>  yes, issues@scons 
19:18:25  <stevenknight> 2135:  consensus 1.0.x p2 
19:18:34  <[GregoryNoel](GregoryNoel)>  done 
19:18:41  <stevenknight> 2136:  consensus 1.x p2 
19:18:46  <[GregoryNoel](GregoryNoel)>  done 
19:19:00  <stevenknight> 2137:  consensus 1.0 p3 
19:19:08  <[GregoryNoel](GregoryNoel)>  yes, but who? 
19:19:49  <stevenknight> guess it partly depends on how soon we push out 1.0 
19:20:12  <[GregoryNoel](GregoryNoel)>  I think it should be within a week; it's aged enough. 
19:20:12  <stevenknight> i'll take it, unless you have any text you've already started 
19:20:22  <stevenknight> agree re: aged enough 
19:20:31  <[GregoryNoel](GregoryNoel)>  no, in fact, I think I'm too close to it 
19:20:27  <stevenknight> 2137:  1.0 p3 stevenknight 
19:20:38  <[GregoryNoel](GregoryNoel)>  done 
19:21:01  <[GregoryNoel](GregoryNoel)>  2138 
19:21:12  <stevenknight> 2138:  consensus 1.0.x p2 
19:21:13  <stevenknight> me 
19:21:22  <[GregoryNoel](GregoryNoel)>  ok, works 
19:21:39  <stevenknight> 2140:  changed my mind, 2.x p4 
19:21:50  <stevenknight> move it up if someone actually comes up with a good interface for it 
19:21:58  <stevenknight> (the underlying hook, i mean) 
19:22:10  <[GregoryNoel](GregoryNoel)>  okay 
19:22:37  <stevenknight> 2141:  1.0.x p2, me 
19:22:40  <[GregoryNoel](GregoryNoel)>  2141, consensus 
19:22:47  <Azverkan>     2140: I'd think that the hook would probably be driven more by distributed build requirements like [IncrediBuild](IncrediBuild) than the actual submitted bug 
19:23:18  <stevenknight> 2140:  agree that that's a more compelling reason than this particular use case 
19:23:37  <stevenknight> but someone still has to care enough to pony up the code 
19:24:05  *      Azverkan is at the moment I'm worried about the GIL not getting fixed in Py3k 
19:24:10  <stevenknight> 2142:  consensus dup 
19:24:35  <[GregoryNoel](GregoryNoel)>  2142, I added a comment to 2132 asking that he takes makes sure it uses env[ENV] 
19:24:29  <stevenknight> 2143:  consensus 1.x p2 david 
19:24:46  <[GregoryNoel](GregoryNoel)>  2143, done 
19:24:47  <stevenknight> cool, thanks 
19:24:52  <stevenknight> (re: 2142) 
19:25:36  <stevenknight> 2144:  Brandon, can you say more about the Windows API issue at work here 
19:26:01  <Azverkan>     It's probably more complicated than we want to spend on it 
19:26:01  <[GregoryNoel](GregoryNoel)>  2144, I agree with Steven's comment, but we should ask Benoit about it. 
19:26:16  <Azverkan>     But basically Ctrl-C event and job trees is the root of the issue 
19:26:31  <stevenknight> on the discussion or on actually fixing it (or working around it) in SCons? 
19:26:32  <Azverkan>     Unix sends signals to subprocesses differently than windows does 
19:26:39  <[GregoryNoel](GregoryNoel)>  Is the original issue from Windoze? 
19:26:46  <stevenknight> yes, IIRC 
19:26:58  <Azverkan>     yeah 
19:27:16  <Azverkan>     it gets even nastier if you have a scons running inside a scons running inside a scons or something like that 
19:27:16  <[GregoryNoel](GregoryNoel)>  Then it looks like Brandon is volunteering.... {;-} 
19:27:33  <Azverkan>     I dont think it's something we can ever fix on the command line without an IPC layer 
19:28:11  <Azverkan>     but the named event hack I did in the past worked well enough that I could submit a patch 
19:28:05  <stevenknight> basically something else wraps and just handles the interrupt 
19:28:16  <stevenknight> and passes word in a controlled way to the back-end SCons process? 
19:28:50  <Azverkan>     in my case we just modified the gui to send the named event instead of the Ctrl-C or the Ctrl-Break which both have bugs (and different kinds) 
19:29:04  <Azverkan>     Ctrl-C corrupts scons and Ctrl-Break corrupts subtools 
19:29:16  <[GregoryNoel](GregoryNoel)>  Ah, Windo$e... 
19:29:39  <stevenknight> and i assume the wrapper that handles the Ctrl-{C,Break} needs to be a separate task, not just a thread? 
19:29:50  <Azverkan>     yes and scons cannot be a child of that task 
19:30:00  <Azverkan>     so you have to spawn a task parented by the parent of scons 
19:30:12  <stevenknight> what fun! 
19:30:19  <Azverkan>     detach the console from scons and reattach the console to that 
19:30:27  <Azverkan>     its probably not really worth the effort 
19:30:32  *      [GregoryNoel](GregoryNoel) wonders about Steven's idea of fun 
19:30:48  <Azverkan>     I'd put it off until we think about releasing 2.x 
19:31:02  <[GregoryNoel](GregoryNoel)>  Future?  Or wontfix? 
19:31:11  <stevenknight> future 
19:31:17  <Azverkan>     future because you will get new bugs otherwise 
19:31:21  <Azverkan>     over and over 
19:31:31  <stevenknight> Brandon, could you add a write up describing the above so it gets captured? 
19:31:32  <[GregoryNoel](GregoryNoel)>  ok, what priority then? 
19:31:39  <Azverkan>     yeah 
19:31:44  <stevenknight> thanks 
19:31:46  <stevenknight> i'd say p2 
19:31:56  <stevenknight> agree it sounds like a lot of effort 
19:32:06  <stevenknight> but it goes to the heart of the "correct build" priority 
19:32:07  <[GregoryNoel](GregoryNoel)>  ... I was thinking p3 but I'll go with p2 
19:32:17  <[GregoryNoel](GregoryNoel)>  ah, good point 
19:32:25  <stevenknight> okay, 2144, future, p2 
19:32:29  <[GregoryNoel](GregoryNoel)>  done 
19:32:48  <stevenknight> 2145:  research, me 
19:33:13  <[GregoryNoel](GregoryNoel)>  ok, done 
19:33:29  <stevenknight> 2146:  anytime 
19:33:36  <stevenknight> me if no one else volunteers 
19:33:44  <[GregoryNoel](GregoryNoel)>  done 
19:33:59  <[GregoryNoel](GregoryNoel)>  I think you're the only one who understands it 
19:33:52  <stevenknight> re: 2146 
19:34:45  <stevenknight> if we scrap the surrogate stuff, what about generatiing the output with scripts modeled after the test/*.py infrastructure? 
19:35:12  <[GregoryNoel](GregoryNoel)>  say more? 
19:35:52  <stevenknight> all of the in-line <scons_example> things 
19:36:18  <stevenknight> get turned into a separate self-contained script based on the same API that the test/*.py tests use 
19:36:41  <stevenknight> generating the example output becomes a matter of running some script like runtest.py 
19:36:51  <stevenknight> that captures the output at the right step 
19:37:32  <[GregoryNoel](GregoryNoel)>  I'm not sure...  It still seems awkward.  Maybe you should start a thread on the dev list. 
19:37:43  <stevenknight> your ideas about making it a more integrated part of the packaging build are on target regardless of this internal implementation detail 
19:37:56  <stevenknight> okay, i can do that 
19:38:10  <[GregoryNoel](GregoryNoel)>  ok, I'll look for your message 
19:38:22  <stevenknight> shall we try to make some progress on 2006H2? 
19:38:29  <[GregoryNoel](GregoryNoel)>  How about that?  We finished the current issues! 
19:38:39  *      stevenknight rejoices 
19:38:36  <[GregoryNoel](GregoryNoel)>  Yes, onward 
19:38:46  <[GregoryNoel](GregoryNoel)>  only a few of those left now... 
19:39:13  <stevenknight> cool 
19:39:23  <stevenknight> net lag pulling up the spreadsheet... 
19:39:25  <stevenknight> there we go 
19:39:35  <bdbaddog>     :) 
19:39:36  <stevenknight> where did we leave off? 
19:39:42  <[GregoryNoel](GregoryNoel)>  1437 is first 
19:39:55  <stevenknight> 1437:  consensus dup 
19:39:57  <stevenknight> hey bill 
19:40:23  <bdbaddog>     Good evening.  Gotta run in a few,but here for a few. 
19:40:36  <stevenknight> cool, thanks 
19:40:39  <[GregoryNoel](GregoryNoel)>  Hey, Bill 
19:40:42  <bdbaddog>     timely 1437 is related to email thread Greg and I have been sharing. 
19:40:49  <stevenknight> on 2006H2 
19:40:49  <stevenknight> 1438:  i 
19:40:50  <[GregoryNoel](GregoryNoel)>  yep 
19:40:55  <stevenknight> try again 
19:41:10  <stevenknight> 1438:  I'm coming around to Bill's suggestion of 2.x and redoing this 
19:42:09  <stevenknight> I'm starting to think I can kill off [VariantDir](VariantDir) by making the repository support more flexible 
19:42:20  <stevenknight> let you really stack directories arbitrarily 
19:42:33  <[GregoryNoel](GregoryNoel)>  I tried to go there once; you shot me down. 
19:42:45  <stevenknight> yep, i was wrong 
19:42:51  <bdbaddog>     sounds like it would support very complicated schemes, but would it be easy to to the simple case? 
19:43:33  <stevenknight> i think so 
19:43:49  <bdbaddog>     worth a wiki page to discuss ? 
19:43:54  <bdbaddog>     and/or email thread. 
19:43:57  <[GregoryNoel](GregoryNoel)>  I'd certainly like to see a proposal 
19:44:00  <stevenknight> sounds like it 
19:44:16  <Azverkan>     I'm also of the opinion that the current approach needs to replaced and since that would potentially require scripts to be updated it would have to be a 2.x feature 
19:44:17  <stevenknight> probably research, p3, me then 
19:44:30  <bdbaddog>     ok guys. gotta run. sorry to be a short timer tonight. 
19:44:37  <[GregoryNoel](GregoryNoel)>  your research?  That's 'anytime' 
19:44:48  <stevenknight> :-) 
19:45:21  <[GregoryNoel](GregoryNoel)>  I'm not kidding; I plan to manipulate the ordering so 'anytime' always sorts just after the current release. 
19:45:35  <[GregoryNoel](GregoryNoel)>  Er, the next immediate release. 
19:45:47  <stevenknight> right, but i'm actually somewhat serious too 
19:46:02  <stevenknight> i've adopted your terminology and agree that "research" should be higher priority 
19:46:10  <stevenknight> for reclassification 
19:46:18  <stevenknight> even if i'm not consistent about doing that 
19:46:37  <[GregoryNoel](GregoryNoel)>  Hmmm, ok, then which do you mean? 
19:46:41  <stevenknight> so i'd rather see this as "research" so the proposal has at least a shot at getting written up sooner rather than later 
19:46:53  <[GregoryNoel](GregoryNoel)>  I'll go for that 
19:46:56  <stevenknight> if only because I have it staring at me reminding me i haven't done it yet... 
19:47:08  <[GregoryNoel](GregoryNoel)>  {;-} 
19:47:18  <stevenknight> okay, 1438:  research, sk 
19:47:22  <[GregoryNoel](GregoryNoel)>  done 
19:47:42  <[GregoryNoel](GregoryNoel)>  1439, toolchain 
19:47:49  <stevenknight> done 
19:47:55  <stevenknight> (I could go with you on invalid, too) 
19:48:19  <stevenknight> 1442:  toolchain / dup 1437 
19:48:23  <stevenknight> ? 
19:48:36  <[GregoryNoel](GregoryNoel)>  yes, invalid, I was thinking of another issue 
19:49:19  <stevenknight> okay, just to be clear:  1439:  invalid ? 
19:49:23  <Azverkan>     not convinced that 1439 is invalid 
19:49:32  <[GregoryNoel](GregoryNoel)>  1439, yes 
19:49:38  <Azverkan>     but a decision that the project sure either make for or against 
19:50:00  <Azverkan>     seems like the current approach is that it is not supported 
19:50:52  <[GregoryNoel](GregoryNoel)>  uh, wait, 1439 has been already taken care of 
19:51:11  <Azverkan>     yeah there is like 10 in a row I think 
19:51:14  <stevenknight> whoa, hang on, i already have a comment on here from July 1 saying this was getting closed 
19:51:46  <stevenknight> but it looks like I didn't change the status 
19:52:06  <[GregoryNoel](GregoryNoel)>  Yes, it's marked invalid; it's still just in the spreadsheet. 
19:52:06  <stevenknight> yeah, we've been through a bunch of these already 
19:52:23  <stevenknight> ah, we only have 7 left from 2006H2 
19:52:25  <[GregoryNoel](GregoryNoel)>  next is 1490 
19:52:48  <stevenknight> damn, i'm down to the last minute 
19:52:55  <stevenknight> same time next week? 
19:53:00  <stevenknight> we obviously won't have gary 
19:53:15  <stevenknight> brandon, is this time good for you -- it's really helpful to have you here 
19:53:48  <Azverkan>     the earliest I get home by is 7:00PM west coast 
19:54:24  <Azverkan>     the time we have now is best for me so far 
19:54:34  <stevenknight> okay, sounds good 
19:54:35  <[GregoryNoel](GregoryNoel)>  You can certainly join a little late, but would some other time be better? 
19:55:02  <Azverkan>     my work hours are more or less demand driven 
19:55:07  <stevenknight> if so, say the word 
19:55:13  <Azverkan>     not really 
19:55:20  <stevenknight> i'll assume same time (19h00 PDT) next week unless i hear otherwise 
19:55:27  <Azverkan>     I'm other completely busy or free by 1900 
19:55:35  <[GregoryNoel](GregoryNoel)>  OK, then we demand that you're here next time {;-} 
19:55:30  <stevenknight> ....and i'm at my stop 
19:55:32  <stevenknight> later... 
19:55:35  *      stevenknight has quit ("Leaving") 
19:56:19  <[GregoryNoel](GregoryNoel)>  I've got to go, too; le Tour de France calls... 
19:56:25  <[GregoryNoel](GregoryNoel)>  cul 
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21:55:33  *      bdbaddog (n=[bdeegan@adsl-71-131-30-2.dsl.sntc01.pacbell.net](mailto:bdeegan@adsl-71-131-30-2.dsl.sntc01.pacbell.net)) has left #scons