IrcLog2008 09 22

18:48:49  *      garyo-home (n=[chatzill@209-6-158-38.c3-0.smr-ubr3.sbo-smr.ma.cable.rcn.com](mailto:chatzill@209-6-158-38.c3-0.smr-ubr3.sbo-smr.ma.cable.rcn.com)) has joined #scons 
19:04:12  *      stevenknight (n=[stevenkn@c-67-169-176-171.hsd1.ca.comcast.net](mailto:stevenkn@c-67-169-176-171.hsd1.ca.comcast.net)) has joined #scons 
19:04:21  <stevenknight> hey garyo-home 
19:04:28  *      [GregNoel](GregNoel) is no longer marked as being away 
19:04:37  <stevenknight> anyone else here? 
19:04:48  <[GregNoel](GregNoel)>     Hey, I just got here; give me a minute. 
19:04:54  <garyo-home>   Hi Steven.  I'm trying to get some spreadsheet bugs marked up, but am too slow :-( 
19:05:01  <garyo-home>   Hi, Greg. 
19:05:23  <stevenknight> i just got home 
19:05:31  <stevenknight> have to walk the dog first... 
19:05:38  <stevenknight> should be ~10 minutes 
19:05:50  <stevenknight> do what you can to start and i'll catch up 
19:05:49  <garyo-home>   OK, I'll work on my spreadsheet comments 
19:05:56  <stevenknight> thanks 
19:14:07  <garyo-home>   OK, I'm more or less ready; Greg are you there? 
19:17:25  <garyo-home>   Anyone? 
19:17:56  <[GregNoel](GregNoel)>     Hi, I went to get some tea... 
19:18:28  <garyo-home>   Hi.  Shall we start? 
19:19:03  <[GregNoel](GregNoel)>     sure 
19:19:13  <[GregNoel](GregNoel)>     2198 
19:19:37  <[GregNoel](GregNoel)>     I don't understand your comment 
19:19:53  <garyo-home>   Can we get the OP to add the 1.5.2 changes too? 
19:20:13  <stevenknight> back 
19:20:15  <[GregNoel](GregNoel)>     If he has one.  1.5.2 is getting pretty rare. 
19:21:06  <garyo-home>   I just mean to modify all the files he mentioned, to get rid of .sources and .implicit -- that's what he's proposing, right? 
19:21:06  <stevenknight> maybe if it doesn't apply cleanly to 1.5.2 we delay to 2.x 
19:21:10  <stevenknight> more incentive to get it out 
19:21:24  <[GregNoel](GregNoel)>     hmmm... not a bad idea 
19:21:35  <garyo-home>   From looking at the bug, I think that's better 
19:21:47  <garyo-home>   2.0 Ludwig p3? 
19:22:17  <[GregNoel](GregNoel)>     do you mean 2.0 or 2.x? 
19:22:23  <garyo-home>   2.x is fine. 
19:22:28  <[GregNoel](GregNoel)>     works 
19:22:36  <stevenknight> 2.x, with a note re: pulling it in if works w/1.5.2 
19:22:45  <[GregNoel](GregNoel)>     done 
19:22:50  <garyo-home>   I think he says it won't. 
19:22:51  <[GregNoel](GregNoel)>     2199 
19:23:12  <garyo-home>   Your gmake file manip functions.  I like it. 
19:23:32  <[GregNoel](GregNoel)>     I'm a bit reluctant to commit to 1.x, but I can give it a shot 
19:23:50  <garyo-home>   Good; if it slips, it slips.  No big deal -- a nice-to-have feature. 
19:24:09  <[GregNoel](GregNoel)>     OK, 1.x p3 or p4? 
19:24:22  <stevenknight> p4 if it's that slippable 
19:24:27  <garyo-home>   Seems like there's a lot in 1.x already... 
19:24:34  <stevenknight> yep 
19:24:37  <[GregNoel](GregNoel)>     yeah 
19:24:48  <garyo-home>   ok, 1.x p4 greg. 
19:24:54  <[GregNoel](GregNoel)>     done 
19:25:14  <garyo-home>   2200 you guys want in 1.x too, but I'm skeptical. 
19:25:24  <[GregNoel](GregNoel)>     I'm swayed by Steven's argument. 
19:25:52  <garyo-home>   Would any Execute clear all node caches? 
19:26:06  <[GregNoel](GregNoel)>     I agree that #2 would be more work, so I'll go for 2.x 
19:26:13  <garyo-home>   (Do we even really care about caching during reading SConscripts?) 
19:26:27  <garyo-home>   OK, 2.x p3 Ludwig then? 
19:26:29  <[GregNoel](GregNoel)>     Yes, any Execute() of an Action we don't provide. 
19:26:45  <stevenknight> i think any Execute() should clear its targets 
19:26:52  <[GregNoel](GregNoel)>     (Yes, we care; it avoids disk hits, which cost time.) 
19:27:00  <[GregNoel](GregNoel)>     Execute() has no targets. 
19:27:02  <garyo-home>   But we won't know the targets w/ proposal #2. 
19:27:12  <stevenknight> right, that's why i favor proposal #2 
19:27:29  <stevenknight> wait, i see what you mean 
19:27:33  <stevenknight> i read that as "w/out" 
19:27:38  <stevenknight> hmm 
19:28:30  <garyo-home>   maybe we shouldn't design it here, just mark as "needs discussion" or something 
19:28:42  <[GregNoel](GregNoel)>     agree, but where? 
19:29:02  <garyo-home>   2.x p3 (mark in the issue itself, in the text) 
19:29:55  <[GregNoel](GregNoel)>     OK, I'll make myself a CC 
19:29:58  <stevenknight> (sorry, interrupt) 
19:30:09  <[GregNoel](GregNoel)>     Should I add you two as well? 
19:30:14  <stevenknight> okay, 2.x p3 
19:30:17  <stevenknight> yes, cc me 
19:30:24  <garyo-home>   ok.  Or just paste in this section of the irc log :-) 
19:30:30  <[GregNoel](GregNoel)>     That, too 
19:30:43  <stevenknight> okay, done? 
19:30:49  <[GregNoel](GregNoel)>     I'd like it a bit sooner; maybe 2.x p2? 
19:30:57  <stevenknight> i can go with p2 
19:31:00  <garyo-home>   ok w/ me 
19:31:03  <[GregNoel](GregNoel)>     done 
19:31:12  <[GregNoel](GregNoel)>     2201 
19:31:13  <garyo-home>   2201: I just asked the OP for a testcase. 
19:32:07  <[GregNoel](GregNoel)>     It's not clear to me what he wants; Nodes have cached info, not Executors. 
19:32:13  <garyo-home>   Steven, if you think it's a real issue maybe 1.x/p3/Ludwig is the way to go. 
19:32:25  <[GregNoel](GregNoel)>     Let's see what he offers and review it next time. 
19:32:36  <garyo-home>   ok w/ me. 
19:32:40  <garyo-home>   defer. 
19:33:05  <[GregNoel](GregNoel)>     stevenknight, OK? 
19:33:18  <stevenknight> (sorry, more interrupts) 
19:33:37  <garyo-home>   I think so 
19:33:38  <stevenknight> well, just because i think it's an issue doesn't mean it is 
19:33:41  <stevenknight> i haven't done the triage 
19:34:00  <[GregNoel](GregNoel)>     Let's look at it again next time, then 
19:34:01  <stevenknight> so getting a test case seems like it should come before committing the resources 
19:34:14  <stevenknight> done, ask for test case and re-triage 
19:34:18  <[GregNoel](GregNoel)>     done 
19:34:21  <[GregNoel](GregNoel)>     2204 
19:34:23  <garyo-home>   2204: I like Steven's idea of just a better error with more context. 
19:35:34  <[GregNoel](GregNoel)>     I'm not sure I understand what Seven is suggesting 
19:35:20  <garyo-home>   We need more developers. 
19:35:31  <stevenknight> garyo-home:  agreed 
19:35:36  <[GregNoel](GregNoel)>     yes 
19:35:53  <[GregNoel](GregNoel)>     Is Mati still around? 
19:36:14  <garyo-home>   Good question.  I'll look him up. 
19:37:08  <[GregNoel](GregNoel)>     Steven, if you know how to fix 2204, do you really think it should be 1.2? 
19:37:19  <stevenknight> [GregNoel](GregNoel):  all those errors come through the env.arg2nodes() methods that translate strings to Nodes 
19:37:39  <stevenknight> that provides a place for some code to catch the mismatch between factory and returned Node 
19:38:02  <garyo-home>   At least print some context to help the user find the bug. 
19:38:21  <stevenknight> right now the underlying lookup that catches it return a normal Python [TypeError](TypeError) because I thought I was being "pythonic" in throwing [TypeError](TypeError) for those mismatches 
19:38:25  <[GregNoel](GregNoel)>     Hmmm...  OK, I'll trust you.  a2n is called a lot, so it can't be slowed down too much. 
19:38:35  <stevenknight> fair point 
19:38:44  <stevenknight> 1.2, p3, me? 
19:38:51  <[GregNoel](GregNoel)>     done 
19:38:51  <garyo-home>   Right, but he's just going to catch the [TypeError](TypeError) and throw something else.  No slowdown. 
19:38:59  <stevenknight> done 
19:39:01  <stevenknight> 2205: 
19:39:30  <[GregNoel](GregNoel)>     2205: dup 1957? 
19:39:36  <stevenknight> there's too much in 1.x, i'm going with you guys on 2.x 
19:40:15  <garyo-home>   I think it has to be 2.x unfortunately.  Could be dup of 1957; there's a patch in 1957 too, not sure of its quality 
19:40:23  <garyo-home>   (I didn't really look at it) 
19:40:30  <stevenknight> it's pretty extensive 
19:40:38  <stevenknight> not clear to me it's a dup without more triage 
19:40:44  <[GregNoel](GregNoel)>     defer? 
19:41:22  <garyo-home>   I think it is a dup, at least 1957 tries to convert all exceptions into [BuildFailures](BuildFailures), and 2205 is an exception coming through. 
19:41:33  <garyo-home>   ([TaskmasterException](TaskmasterException)) 
19:43:08  <[GregNoel](GregNoel)>     Either defer for more triage or Gary for research? 
19:43:20  <stevenknight> defer 
19:43:40  <garyo-home>   ok, I'll research and if it's a dup I'll mark it as such. 
19:44:02  <stevenknight> thanks 
19:44:06  <[GregNoel](GregNoel)>     done 
19:44:26  <[GregNoel](GregNoel)>     2207 
19:44:31  <garyo-home>   2207: works as designed imho 
19:45:14  <[GregNoel](GregNoel)>     Yeah, but IOError is not cool 
19:45:29  <stevenknight> agree w/Greg 
19:45:44  <stevenknight> stack traces scare users 
19:46:06  <garyo-home>   ... but finding everywhere scons opens a file and seeing if the i/o err is due to dangling symlink could be a big mess. 
19:46:09  <[GregNoel](GregNoel)>     It probably should throw the same error that the Taskmaster throws for a missing source 
19:46:43  <stevenknight> right, but it doesn't have to be absolutely everywhere 
19:46:44  <garyo-home>   Actually I claim a missing source err would be even more confusing to users. 
19:46:51  <stevenknight> just take care of this one and make the world that much better 
19:47:12  <garyo-home>   mumble, ok I guess 
19:47:16  <stevenknight> there aren't *that* many places where do a direct open like this 
19:47:26  <stevenknight> usually it's under get_contents() or something 
19:47:35  <garyo-home>   good point 
19:47:50  <stevenknight> okay, done 
19:47:53  <[GregNoel](GregNoel)>     done 
19:48:01  <[GregNoel](GregNoel)>     er, wait 
19:48:08  <garyo-home>   steven? 
19:48:11  <stevenknight> yes? 
19:48:19  <[GregNoel](GregNoel)>     did we agree on milestone and priority? 
19:48:22  <garyo-home>   are you taking it? 
19:48:24  <stevenknight> oh 
19:48:32  <stevenknight> yeah, i'll take it 
19:48:38  <[GregNoel](GregNoel)>     ok, when? 
19:48:50  <stevenknight> 1.x p4 
19:48:53  <[GregNoel](GregNoel)>     done 
19:49:04  <[GregNoel](GregNoel)>     2208 
19:49:36  <[GregNoel](GregNoel)>     I'd like to know what the performance impact will be, but I like the idea of a warning that's always on. 
19:49:45  <[GregNoel](GregNoel)>     er, defaults to on. 
19:50:32  <garyo-home>   agree w/ greg 
19:50:53  <[GregNoel](GregNoel)>     is it a dup of 'ancient bug'? 
19:51:13  <stevenknight> 'ancient bug'? 
19:51:23  <garyo-home>   let me see... 
19:51:33  <[GregNoel](GregNoel)>     Gary says he filed an 'ancient bug' on it. 
19:52:30  <stevenknight> ah 
19:52:29  <garyo-home>   Can't find it anymore. 
19:52:52  <stevenknight> i think 1.x, p3, me 
19:52:59  <[GregNoel](GregNoel)>     OK, if we find it later, we'll worry about it then. 
19:53:03  <[GregNoel](GregNoel)>     done 
19:53:15  <stevenknight> note re: vaidating performance impact before  submitting 
19:53:21  <[GregNoel](GregNoel)>     right 
19:53:40  <[GregNoel](GregNoel)>     2209 
19:54:10  <stevenknight> future 
19:54:36  <[GregNoel](GregNoel)>     it's in script support, so it may not even be relevant to other front-ends 
19:54:40  <garyo-home>   future p4 ok w/ me, unless I'm missing something 
19:54:50  <[GregNoel](GregNoel)>     future p4 it is 
19:55:02  <[GregNoel](GregNoel)>     2210 
19:55:11  <stevenknight> shoot, i'm going to have to stop soon 
19:55:20  <garyo-home>   me too, sorry. 
19:55:29  <garyo-home>   We can do a few more 
19:55:50  <garyo-home>   2210: future p2? 
19:55:53  <stevenknight> 2210:  future p2 
19:55:55  <stevenknight> done 
19:55:55  <[GregNoel](GregNoel)>     I'll take it as anytime, but not soon 
19:56:01  <garyo-home>   2211 anytime p5 steven? 
19:56:24  <stevenknight> done 
19:56:28  <[GregNoel](GregNoel)>     done 
19:56:40  <garyo-home>   2212 is vs_revamp 
19:56:50  <stevenknight> yes, vs_revamp 
19:56:56  <garyo-home>   soon I hope 
19:56:58  <[GregNoel](GregNoel)>     How should I mark it? 
19:57:10  <[GregNoel](GregNoel)>     dup of something? 
19:57:28  <stevenknight> no, 1.x p3, add [VisualStudio](VisualStudio) keyword 
19:57:33  <stevenknight> put david's name on it 
19:57:33  <[GregNoel](GregNoel)>     done 
19:57:51  <stevenknight> 2213:  2.x p4 
19:58:11  <[GregNoel](GregNoel)>     done 
19:58:20  <stevenknight> 2215 i just closed 
19:58:32  <[GregNoel](GregNoel)>     no, open is a function; file is a type. 
19:58:49  <[GregNoel](GregNoel)>     It may not be obvious, but there's a distinction. 
19:59:01  <stevenknight> yes, but i submit it's not crucial for 1.5.2 compatibility 
19:59:09  <stevenknight> which only has old-style classes anyway 
19:59:12  <[GregNoel](GregNoel)>     good point. 
19:59:17  <[GregNoel](GregNoel)>     OK, done 
19:59:31  <stevenknight> all right, gotta run 
19:59:33  <[GregNoel](GregNoel)>     last one 
19:59:42  <stevenknight> right 
19:59:48  <garyo-home>   2216? 
19:59:47  <stevenknight> 2216:  anytime p5 me 
19:59:53  <[GregNoel](GregNoel)>     done 
20:00:06  <stevenknight> okay, catch you guys next week 
20:00:21  <garyo-home>   ok, sounds good.  Will try to get my 1.1 issues done! 
20:00:22  <[GregNoel](GregNoel)>     Next week, or should we go for two weeks? 
20:00:31  <stevenknight> i'll probably send email re: trying for a different time 
20:00:38  <[GregNoel](GregNoel)>     When's the RC coming out? 
20:00:42  <stevenknight> my transportation situation has changed a bit so this time isn't working as well 
20:00:56  <garyo-home>   actually now that you mention it every week is beginning to be a family issue :-/ 
20:00:56  <[GregNoel](GregNoel)>     OK, we'll look for the message 
20:01:01  <stevenknight> is that this week?  (you'd think i'd read the roadmap...  :-)) 
20:01:18  <[GregNoel](GregNoel)>     yes, next week is supposed to be 1.1 
20:01:20  <stevenknight> yeah, i'm not popular at home on Monday nights... :-( 
20:01:31  <[GregNoel](GregNoel)>     Charger football!!! 
20:01:33  <stevenknight> okay, i'll get an RC out in the next day or two 
20:01:45  <garyo-home>   we can discuss scheduling bug parties later... 
20:01:47  <stevenknight> oh, man, Greg, sorry things are starting so rocky for you guys 
20:02:04  <[GregNoel](GregNoel)>     don't tell me; it's being [TiVoed](TiVoed) 
20:02:18  <stevenknight> i meant the season, not tonight 
20:02:22  <stevenknight> tough losses 
20:02:27  <stevenknight> especially to ^AS#(*& Denver 
20:02:43  <[GregNoel](GregNoel)>     yeah, two losses by a total of three points.  There ought to be a law... 
20:03:01  <[GregNoel](GregNoel)>     Or we should kill all the lawyers, as Shakespere says (the ref is a lawyer)... 
20:02:57  <stevenknight> all right, i'm out of here 
20:02:59  <stevenknight> later... 
20:03:06  *      stevenknight has quit ("Leaving") 
20:03:08  <[GregNoel](GregNoel)>     G'night 
20:03:38  <[GregNoel](GregNoel)>     I'm going to go watch the game; cu later. 
20:03:46  <garyo-home>   bye 
20:03:55  *      [GregNoel](GregNoel) has been marked as being away 
20:04:10  *      garyo-home has quit ("[ChatZilla](ChatZilla) 0.9.83 [Firefox 3.0.1/2008070208]")